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It is my great pleasure

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to introduce Professor Deborah Ancona.

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Interestingly enough,

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Deborah was the second professor
to host an event for our alumni

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after I joined the Alumni Office.

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She held it in London,

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a few weeks after Rick held his in Brazil.

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She too has given immensely
to our alumni community.

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And as Faculty Director
of the MIT Leadership Center,

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she's helping drive MIT's innovation

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in an area very important to the school,

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and to all of MIT.

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In addition,

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Deborah just presided over the successful
launch of the MIT Leadership Center yesterday.

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So please join me in giving a

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warm round of applause for Deborah Ancona.

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Thank you, Sean.

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Good morning,

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and welcome to the panel on
¡§Leadership in an Age of Uncertainty.¡¨

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The basic premise of this panel is that
we live in an age of uncertainty.

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An age of complex problems that span
many different kinds of boundaries;

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an age where there are threats and
opportunities that appear unexpectedly;

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and where change is constant and fast paced.

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Another assumption that
we have is that leadership

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in an age of uncertainty
needs to be distributed.

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That is,

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that we cannot only have leadership
at the top of our organizations,

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although executive leadership is
indeed very fundamentally important,

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but that leadership needs to exist throughout,

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that leadership needs to be shared
across individuals within the corporation

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and other kinds of organizations,

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as well as with others outside
of those organizations.

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At MIT Sloan,

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we call this kind of leadership
¡§distributed leadership¡¨.

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And at the MIT Leadership Center,

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we are doing a lot to do research,

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teaching,

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and develop tools

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in terms of understanding how to foster
distributed leadership in organizations.

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But how does this kind
of leadership actually work?

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What does it look like in the real world?

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We are privileged today
to have two experts on hand,

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to help to answer those questions.

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Jim Parker,

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former CEO of Southwest Airlines,

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and Barbara Stocking,

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the Director of Oxfam Great Britain.

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Both of these individuals
have led large organizations

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that are very well-known
for distributed leadership.

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And today we're going to
hear some of their stories,

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and have, hopefully,

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an interesting
discussion and debate about

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what distributed leadership is,

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and how it actually works.

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How can you create an organization
that exemplifies distributed leadership.

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The format that we're going to use today is

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I'm going to spend a couple of minutes
introducing both Jim and Barbara.

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Then each of them is going to take a
little bit of time to explain something

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about their organization,

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so we understand the * in
which each of them is operating.

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Then I'll start the conversation
going with a number of questions.

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We'll then stop the
activity up here on stage,

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and give you all a few minutes
to discuss some of the ideas

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that we've introduced here,

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and to develop some questions,

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and we'll spend the remainder
of the session in discussion around

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the questions that you provide for us.

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So that's the format for the session.

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So let me start with Jim Parker.

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Jim Parker started his professional life

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working at a drive-through
at Sandy's Hamburger Stand.

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After getting his undergraduate degree

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and law degree at the
University of Texas in Austin,

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he became the Assistant Attorney General
for the State of Texas.

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After that, he joined
a law firm as an attorney,

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and in 1986 joined Southwest Airlines.

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He served as CEO and Vice Chairman
of Southwest Airlines

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from June 2001 to July 2004,

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a period in which Southwest Airlines
was named one of

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the most admired companies in America,
three years in a row.

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But all of those titles

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and all of those degrees really don't
begin to give us a picture of Jim Parker

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as a leader who
demonstrated caring, charisma,

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and really decisive decision-making

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during 9-11 and its aftermath,

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which was a very tough time as you
may recall for the airline industry.

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Jim's leadership is very multifaceted

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but can perhaps best be captured by his
value of great respect for others,

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and by his philosophy,

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and I quote,

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¡§of ultimately getting out of the way

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and giving people the ability and
authority to accomplish the mission,

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with the full confidence that
they will be supported.¡¨

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And to Barbara.

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Barbara Stocking got her undergraduate
degree from Cambridge University

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and then came to the United States
to get a masters degree

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at the University of Wisconsin.

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She spent most of her professional
career in healthcare,

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starting work at the National Academy
of Sciences in Washington, D.C.

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She later went on to
the World Health Organization

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as Secretary to the Commission
on River Blindness in West Africa

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and became the Regional Director and
Member of the top management team

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at the National Health Services
in the U.K.

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In 2003, she became the director
of Oxfam Great Britain,

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an affiliate of Oxfam International.

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Here again history does not begin

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to capture the extreme
leadership capability needed

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to work on tsunami relief,
the spread of AIDS,

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and the extreme poverty and inequality that
those at Oxfam are trying to eradicat

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Barbara and her team have recently been
engaged in a large change effort

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that has spread the results of
individual innovators at Oxfam

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to other people doing similar kind of work.

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And then what Barbara and her team have done

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is try to move toward bigger

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and more systemic change.

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That work has been very successful,

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and has resulted in changing

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the lives of struggling individuals,

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as well as national and global policy.

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So please join me in welcoming
Jim Parker and Barbara Stocking.

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Jim, you're on.

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Deborah asked that we start off perhaps by
telling a little bit about our organizations.

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Unlike Barbara's outstanding organization
that she'll tell you about in a moment,

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Southwest Airlines
is a for-profit company.

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That distinguishes not only from Oxfam

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but probably from most of
the other airlines in America.

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And I was recently reminded

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in doing some reading on other subjects

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that in the world of Plato

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there was no room in the life
of a virtuous man for profit.

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And it led me to reflect
that at Southwest Airlines,

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I don't know whether we qualified
as being virtuous or not,

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but we were pretty
darned good competitors

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because we have been profitable
for 32 consecutive years,

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which is an unprecedented
record in the airline industry.

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I will maybe just bore you
with a couple of moments of

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a description of
the history of our company

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because I think it is relevant
to current circumstances.

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Southwest was conceived in 1967

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and was incorporated in 1968.

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Our first flight was delayed until 1971

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due to several years of litigation,

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which was brought by
our would-be competitors

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because at this point in history,

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the airline industry was still
a heavily regulated industry.

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It was regulated by
the federal government,

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by the Civil Aeronautics Board,

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that basically told the airlines
where they could fly,

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when they could fly,

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how much they could charge,

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and so forth.

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And the concept for Southwest Airlines
was to fly in a deregulated environment.

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The loophole in the law
that allowed this was

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that we could do that as long as
we flew within a single state.

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And it just so happened that the geography
of Texas lent itself to this concept.

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It had actually been pioneered
by an airline in California,

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some of you may recall,

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may have heard of, called PSA.

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Southwest was developed
along the same lines,

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as an intra-all-state airline,

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that could charge low fares,

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provide better service,

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more frequent service,

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take people where they wanted to go
when they wanted to go there,

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at a price that
they could afford to pay.

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And this concept was thought
to be un-American somehow

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by our then entrenched competitors,

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and it led to a lot of litigation,

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it led to a really concerted effort
to run Southwest out of business

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even after we began flying in 1971

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that was so intense

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that two of our then-competitors
turned out to be the first airlines

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that were ever actually
indicted and convicted

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of federal criminal antitrust violations

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for their attempts to run
Southwest Airlines out of business

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It got so intense that our bank account
got down to less than a thousand dollars,

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and in order to meet the payroll

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we had to sell one of our four airplanes.

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And at that point,

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we know that we would have
to do something radical.

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The response on the part of our employees
was to come up with a concept,

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a radical concept,

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to revolutionize the way that
airplanes were turned at the gate.

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Normally that process
takes 45 minutes to an hour.

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Southwest employees developed a program
where that airplane could be turned,

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at the time,
in ten minutes at the gate.

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So basically we were able to maintain
the same schedule with three airplanes

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that we had been flying,

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that we had been flying
with four airplanes before,

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maintaining our revenues.

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And after a very
competitive first two years,

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Southwest Airlines actually
turned its first profit of,

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I think it was 170,000 dollars in 1973.

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And the company has been profitable
every year since that time,

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and it's actually grown from

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its origins of
3 airplanes in 1971 to today.

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Southwest is the number
one airline in America

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in terms of domestic passenger
per plane route ,

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maintaining a consistent
record of profitability throughout.

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The basic business
philosophy of Southwest is

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to give customers low fares
and outstanding customer service.

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And of course,
in order to have low fares,

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well it's easy to do one or the other.

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To either have low fares

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or great customer service.

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In order to profitably offer low fares

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we have to have a low cost structure,

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of course.

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And it is a part of
Southwest's business philosophy

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and a key part of our
strategic plan to maintain

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a cost-per-available-seat mile

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which is the unit of
measurement in our industry

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that is somewhere between
20 and 50% below the competition.

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And as I said,

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it's easy to do one or the other,

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to have low cost or outstanding service.

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But you don't really maintain
a sustainable competitive advantage

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by doing just one or the other.

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The way you develop a
sustainable competitive advantage

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and the way you build brand value
and customer loyalty is by doing both.

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And that's the art of the deal.

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We have done this,

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in my opinion,

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because Southwest Airlines has
had a highly dedicated workforce

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throughout its history.

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People sometimes assume that
we must do this by paying low wages,

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or by being a nonunion shop.

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And nothing could be
further from the truth.

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In fact, Southwest Airlines is the most
heavily unionized airline in America.

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And we pay wages that are competitive,

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and at this point,

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well above industry
levels of our competitors.

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The...

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There was actually...

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Deborah and I were discussing last night,

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there was an interesting study
done by Jody Hoffer Gittell.

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It was published and called
¡§The Southwest Way¡¨.

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And what she found...

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she went and studied Southwest

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and she studied other airlines as well.

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And what she determined was that
Southwest's cost advantage didn't come

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from low wages or using cheap equipment.

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We use the best equipment in the industry.

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You know, it didn't come
from anything extraordinary

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except for what she discovered to be,

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what she described as
¡¥relational competence.'

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Basically,

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it's an academic
term for "teamwork".

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We have a highly
motivated group of employees

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who well understand
the mission of our company,

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who understand their role
in performing that mission,

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and who are very
dedicated to achieving it

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because they feel a
sense of ownership in our company.

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00:13:23,700 --> 00:13:28,660
How this relates
to distributed leadership,

255
00:13:29,000 --> 00:13:29,860
I think is that,

256
00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:31,800
a lot of people think of leadership...

257
00:13:32,130 --> 00:13:33,000
When they think of leadership,

258
00:13:33,330 --> 00:13:34,760
they think about CEOs,

259
00:13:35,100 --> 00:13:37,230
or founders or great visionaries.

260
00:13:37,560 --> 00:13:40,730
And certainly that level of
leadership is very important.

261
00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:42,200
But,

262
00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:47,530
in order to have the kind of involved,

263
00:13:47,860 --> 00:13:52,600
dedicated employees who feel a
sense of ownership in the company,

264
00:13:52,930 --> 00:13:57,430
the most important level of leadership
is really the local leadership.

265
00:13:57,760 --> 00:13:59,660
Because most employees

266
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:01,260
when they go through
their whole work career,

267
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:03,560
never meet the CEO of a company.

268
00:14:03,900 --> 00:14:04,430
Or if they do,

269
00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,500
it might be in a large setting,

270
00:14:07,830 --> 00:14:11,500
where they don't really have a chance
to interact on a sustained basis.

271
00:14:11,830 --> 00:14:17,360
The leaders who most shape the
perceptions of frontline employees

272
00:14:17,700 --> 00:14:23,300
are ultimately the people you count on
to deliver your quality service

273
00:14:23,630 --> 00:14:25,860
and to continually improve your product.

274
00:14:26,200 --> 00:14:30,460
Those front line employees view
their frontline leaders as the company.

275
00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:32,160
They are the company

276
00:14:32,500 --> 00:14:33,530
as far as they are concerned.

277
00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:36,660
And what they see and hear
and learn from those people

278
00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:41,360
is how they will perceive
the company in terms of values,

279
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:44,900
and attitudes,

280
00:14:45,230 --> 00:14:46,200
what the mission is,

281
00:14:46,530 --> 00:14:47,800
and whether it's¡K

282
00:14:48,130 --> 00:14:52,100
the company really faithfully adheres
to its mission statement.

283
00:14:52,430 --> 00:14:54,830
All companies have great
lofty mission statements

284
00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:58,900
talking usually about how they

285
00:14:59,230 --> 00:15:01,060
want to have a great work environment

286
00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:02,630
and their employees are very important

287
00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:05,000
and they want to deliver
great customer service.

288
00:15:05,330 --> 00:15:06,130
But really,

289
00:15:06,460 --> 00:15:09,330
your culture is defined by your deeds.

290
00:15:09,660 --> 00:15:10,700
And,

291
00:15:11,030 --> 00:15:12,560
those deeds have to be performed,

292
00:15:12,900 --> 00:15:15,030
have to be delivered at
the local level by local leaders.

293
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:16,430
And I know I'm running long,

294
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:20,430
and I will quit in just a moment, Deborah.

295
00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:23,600
But I think where you see the payoff,

296
00:15:23,930 --> 00:15:25,600
where you see the payoff is

297
00:15:25,930 --> 00:15:29,100
when you see frontline employees
who understand their mission.

298
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:33,200
And they don't perceive their
mission to be a very narrow mission.

299
00:15:33,530 --> 00:15:35,630
They don't just perceive
their mission to be

300
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:36,600
if you're a pilot,

301
00:15:36,930 --> 00:15:40,560
flying the airplane
from Amarillo to Amarillo.

302
00:15:40,900 --> 00:15:42,530
If you're a flight attendant,

303
00:15:42,860 --> 00:15:47,360
you don't just perceive your mission
to be serving drinks on the airplane.

304
00:15:47,700 --> 00:15:48,230
If you're a gate agent,

305
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,460
you don't just perceive your
task to be issuing tickets.

306
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:56,860
Your mission is to help the
company perform its mission of

307
00:15:57,200 --> 00:15:59,360
delivering great customer service,

308
00:15:59,700 --> 00:16:01,500
taking customers where they want to go,

309
00:16:01,830 --> 00:16:03,200
when they want to go,

310
00:16:03,530 --> 00:16:06,030
getting them there with their baggage
with a smile on their face,

311
00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:09,060
and doing it at a price
that they want to pay.

312
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:10,600
And so the payoff is,

313
00:16:10,930 --> 00:16:12,060
you see pilots

314
00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,760
when they're deadheading,

315
00:16:14,100 --> 00:16:16,430
helping the flight attendant
serve peanuts and pick up trash.

316
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:23,130
You see a flight attendant cleaning up
the aircraft between flights.

317
00:16:23,460 --> 00:16:25,230
You see employees doing things

318
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:29,360
that might be outside the normal narrow
scope of their job responsibilities

319
00:16:29,700 --> 00:16:33,000
in order to contribute to the
success of the overall operation.

320
00:16:33,330 --> 00:16:34,300
So, I will quit.

321
00:16:34,630 --> 00:16:35,560
Thank you very much.

322
00:16:36,330 --> 00:16:37,930
Great introduction.

323
00:16:38,260 --> 00:16:39,760
Barbara, you want to give us [something]?

324
00:16:40,100 --> 00:16:43,960
Alight, I've got
just four quick slides on Oxfam

325
00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,130
because I guess most of you sort
of might have vaguely heard of Oxfam

326
00:16:47,460 --> 00:16:48,600
but probably very little idea of
who we are or what we do.

327
00:16:48,930 --> 00:16:49,830
So just a very quick run through.

328
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,300
The first one up there is
our mission statement.

329
00:16:52,630 --> 00:16:55,600
"Working with others to
overcome poverty and suffering."

330
00:16:55,930 --> 00:16:57,900
And people in Oxfam really do believe

331
00:16:58,230 --> 00:17:00,530
that absolute poverty could
be dealt with in the world.

332
00:17:00,860 --> 00:17:01,960
So that's the first bit.

333
00:17:02,300 --> 00:17:04,230
Now, how do we do that?

334
00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,860
We do that in three ways.

335
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:09,800
We have our long-term
development programs.

336
00:17:10,130 --> 00:17:12,060
And there is a very
strong commitment in those that

337
00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:14,830
that is about helping
people help themselves.

338
00:17:15,160 --> 00:17:16,660
This is not charitable activity.

339
00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:18,430
This is about people's rights

340
00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,400
and working alongside the
poorest people of the world

341
00:17:21,730 --> 00:17:24,100
to actually help themselves.

342
00:17:24,430 --> 00:17:26,225
We have our humanitarian work.

343
00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:30,060
We are probably
the world's biggest water

344
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,260
and sanitation provider
in humanitarian response.

345
00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:35,560
So that's the second part,

346
00:17:35,900 --> 00:17:37,900
the saving lives part of the mission.

347
00:17:38,230 --> 00:17:39,900
And the third part, the campaigning,

348
00:17:40,230 --> 00:17:43,260
is actually about dealing with the
causes of poverty and suffering,

349
00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,000
and not just doing the sticking
plaster bits at the top, if you like,

350
00:17:46,330 --> 00:17:48,960
but really trying to get to
the underlying rules of the world

351
00:17:49,300 --> 00:17:49,700
if you like

352
00:17:50,030 --> 00:17:52,600
that are keeping poverty in place.

353
00:17:52,930 --> 00:17:54,160
And the key about that is that

354
00:17:54,500 --> 00:17:57,130
the strength of Oxfam is
actually the links between them.

355
00:17:57,460 --> 00:17:58,560
That people talk to us,

356
00:17:58,900 --> 00:18:00,760
and we have power actually,

357
00:18:01,100 --> 00:18:02,260
because people know

358
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,030
that we really do know what
is going on in the world,

359
00:18:05,360 --> 00:18:06,700
whether it's in a humanitarian crisis,

360
00:18:07,030 --> 00:18:08,960
or in extreme poverty.

361
00:18:09,300 --> 00:18:11,160
And that we can talk with knowledge,

362
00:18:11,500 --> 00:18:12,530
confidence and authority

363
00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:14,230
at global levels about that,

364
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,630
as well as having done
the very serious research

365
00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:18,860
that it often takes at global level.

366
00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,760
That's,  in a sense,
the outward looking business,

367
00:18:24,100 --> 00:18:25,330
the delivery business.

368
00:18:25,660 --> 00:18:26,500
But of course, in a sense,

369
00:18:26,830 --> 00:18:28,660
I always feel
I run two other businesses.

370
00:18:29,000 --> 00:18:30,260
One of them is called "fundraising"

371
00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,500
and one of them is called "trading".

372
00:18:32,830 --> 00:18:33,500
Fundraising,

373
00:18:33,830 --> 00:18:36,600
we get very large
amounts of our money from

374
00:18:36,930 --> 00:18:40,760
actually the UK public,
in ongoing donations.

375
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:41,430
For example,

376
00:18:41,760 --> 00:18:45,860
we have half a million people who
give us regular monthly donations.

377
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:47,960
And that has to be maintained.

378
00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:49,160
And of course,

379
00:18:49,500 --> 00:18:51,330
a lot of people do
give us money for emergencies.

380
00:18:51,660 --> 00:18:53,500
So there's the fundraising business.

381
00:18:53,830 --> 00:18:58,460
But perhaps more surprising to you
would be the trading business.

382
00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,200
In the UK we run
a network of 780 Oxfam shops

383
00:19:03,530 --> 00:19:08,800
that net us in,* currently about
twenty million pounds a year.

384
00:19:09,130 --> 00:19:11,560
And an interesting part about
the distributed leadership

385
00:19:11,900 --> 00:19:12,560
there is that actually,

386
00:19:12,900 --> 00:19:16,100
we have twenty thousand (20,000)
volunteers who work in those shops.

387
00:19:16,430 --> 00:19:19,500
And if you really want to think about
what distributed leadership is about,

388
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:21,830
running a shop with
eighty volunteers working,

389
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,530
you know, maybe two hours a week
for you is quite something to do.

390
00:19:25,860 --> 00:19:28,530
Now, just the last one.

391
00:19:28,860 --> 00:19:30,960
We're also very
distributed geographically.

392
00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:34,360
We're working in something like
seventy countries in the world

393
00:19:34,700 --> 00:19:35,360
at any one time.

394
00:19:35,700 --> 00:19:39,200
And thirty of those will
be in humanitarian crises,

395
00:19:39,530 --> 00:19:41,760
the ongoing chronic crises
of conflict and so on.

396
00:19:42,100 --> 00:19:42,930
So,

397
00:19:43,260 --> 00:19:43,730
then you say,

398
00:19:44,060 --> 00:19:46,000
well, distributed leadership.

399
00:19:46,330 --> 00:19:47,660
I don't think I have any choice,

400
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:48,500
to be honest.

401
00:19:48,830 --> 00:19:51,360
I have a distributed network,

402
00:19:51,700 --> 00:19:52,100
such that,

403
00:19:52,430 --> 00:19:53,500
actually there would be no way to do it

404
00:19:53,830 --> 00:19:56,660
other than to have
confidence in people out there.

405
00:19:57,860 --> 00:19:59,300
The second reason is

406
00:19:59,630 --> 00:20:00,200
that in fact,

407
00:20:00,530 --> 00:20:03,060
what we're dealing with is life.

408
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:04,960
We're dealing with people who are,

409
00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:07,300
maybe displaced people
in a humanitarian crisis

410
00:20:07,630 --> 00:20:09,300
or living in extreme poverty.

411
00:20:09,630 --> 00:20:11,030
And the way we're working with them

412
00:20:11,360 --> 00:20:12,800
cannot be boiled down to tasks.

413
00:20:13,130 --> 00:20:14,860
It is so enormously complicated

414
00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:16,560
the way their lives work

415
00:20:16,900 --> 00:20:19,800
and how you can help support
them in different interventions,

416
00:20:20,130 --> 00:20:22,430
that there is no way that I,
sitting in Oxford,

417
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,330
could tell people what to do exactly.

418
00:20:26,660 --> 00:20:29,030
And if I can just give
you an example of that,

419
00:20:29,360 --> 00:20:32,400
with HIV aids work in southern Africa,

420
00:20:32,730 --> 00:20:34,500
we're not a health services deliverer,

421
00:20:34,830 --> 00:20:36,660
we don't have lots of doctors and nurses.

422
00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:39,030
We're very strong
on people's livelihoods,

423
00:20:39,360 --> 00:20:41,060
particularly agricultural livelihoods.

424
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:44,260
We're also very good
on community participation.

425
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:45,560
And we spent a few years really,

426
00:20:45,900 --> 00:20:46,900
trying to figure out, well,

427
00:20:47,230 --> 00:20:51,860
what do we do to really contribute
to the HIV/AIDS crisis in Africa,

428
00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,860
and began to work
through the existing programs.

429
00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:57,330
And what staff actually

430
00:20:57,660 --> 00:20:58,430
have discovered

431
00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,200
is that we can really bring something
quite special to those communities,

432
00:21:02,530 --> 00:21:03,860
in that we're now providing

433
00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:07,560
what I describe as
community support strategies.

434
00:21:07,900 --> 00:21:12,260
Helping livelihoods change so that
they are more relevant to communities

435
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:13,160
that no longer have the labor

436
00:21:13,500 --> 00:21:15,130
to do intense agricultural work.

437
00:21:16,260 --> 00:21:19,560
Working with communities so that,
for example,

438
00:21:19,900 --> 00:21:20,830
they're providing volunteer support

439
00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,700
to orphan-headed households.

440
00:21:23,030 --> 00:21:23,560
In effect,

441
00:21:23,900 --> 00:21:26,430
sort of mentoring the
older children as parents.

442
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,260
Now, the idea that I could
have dreamt any of that up

443
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:31,460
from Oxford is just ridiculous.

444
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:35,700
You know, it had to be the people on the
ground working with those communities,

445
00:21:36,030 --> 00:21:36,800
who were working their way

446
00:21:37,130 --> 00:21:41,960
through to figure out what the
best way to operate really was.

447
00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:43,330
But that's quite complicated too.

448
00:21:43,660 --> 00:21:45,460
Because if you think about
the three parts of our business,

449
00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:47,560
they're also different.

450
00:21:47,900 --> 00:21:48,230
The long term development work,

451
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,500
you can see how that
has to evolve over time

452
00:21:50,830 --> 00:21:52,330
with a lot of local leadership.

453
00:21:52,660 --> 00:21:53,600
In a humanitarian crisis,

454
00:21:53,930 --> 00:21:55,430
it is actually rather different.

455
00:21:55,760 --> 00:21:56,530
At those times,

456
00:21:56,860 --> 00:21:58,460
you really have to
really give direction.

457
00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,230
People have to go,
and they do have to do,

458
00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,500
and they have to work to much
more standard operating procedures.

459
00:22:04,830 --> 00:22:07,830
So already we've got dilemmas
and tensions in the organization,

460
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,960
particularly if you have a country where

461
00:22:10,300 --> 00:22:11,460
you're doing longer
term development work

462
00:22:11,800 --> 00:22:13,430
that is not used
to the humanitarian crisis,

463
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:15,660
and suddenly hits one.

464
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,460
And then again, on campaigning.

465
00:22:18,800 --> 00:22:21,300
I have to have the
campaigners really freed up

466
00:22:21,630 --> 00:22:22,130
to operate,

467
00:22:22,460 --> 00:22:24,160
because they're working
in a very fast-moving world,

468
00:22:24,500 --> 00:22:25,360
a world of the media,

469
00:22:25,700 --> 00:22:26,700
of change,

470
00:22:27,030 --> 00:22:27,830
of lobbying activities,

471
00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,600
where suddenly it becomes clear

472
00:22:29,930 --> 00:22:31,460
what it is that
could make a difference.

473
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,300
They've got to be free to act.

474
00:22:33,630 --> 00:22:35,230
But again,
that's not very easy either.

475
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:36,600
Because in a lot of our campaigns,

476
00:22:36,930 --> 00:22:37,700
we're working with,

477
00:22:38,030 --> 00:22:38,730
as Deborah says,

478
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:40,460
many other organizations.

479
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,360
In the global campaign for
Action Against Poverty this year,

480
00:22:43,700 --> 00:22:46,300
we're working with enormous
numbers of people globally.

481
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:47,060
Even in the UK,

482
00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:50,260
the Make Poverty History
move had 420 members.

483
00:22:50,600 --> 00:22:51,530
So working in that

484
00:22:51,860 --> 00:22:53,560
to bring about some real change,

485
00:22:53,900 --> 00:22:55,530
and in fact, in some ways,

486
00:22:55,860 --> 00:22:57,500
to offer leadership to that alliance,

487
00:22:57,830 --> 00:23:00,300
but without being perceived to
offer leadership to that alliance,

488
00:23:00,630 --> 00:23:02,460
is quite an interesting challenge.

489
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:04,200
So, a few things about...

490
00:23:04,530 --> 00:23:09,660
commenting about what it takes to run
a distributed leadership organization.

491
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:10,260
I mean,

492
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,130
the first thing
that's absolutely critical,

493
00:23:12,460 --> 00:23:13,430
and it relates to what Jim said,

494
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:17,060
is that you have to keep
reinforcing the values and culture.

495
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,100
Now, in a way,

496
00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:20,230
I have probably less
of a problem with that.

497
00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,660
The culture in Oxfam
is inordinately strong.

498
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,730
The values and beliefs
that people have

499
00:23:26,060 --> 00:23:27,860
are very, very deep rooted,

500
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:29,030
and amazingly,

501
00:23:29,360 --> 00:23:31,930
get passed on very fast.

502
00:23:32,260 --> 00:23:36,000
I have 700 new staff in
Aceh for the tsunami response.

503
00:23:36,330 --> 00:23:39,300
And from all the evaluations
and reports that come back,

504
00:23:39,630 --> 00:23:43,530
they have managed to get absorbed
into the culture and the values,

505
00:23:43,860 --> 00:23:46,600
particularly the values of
empowerment to the people themselves,

506
00:23:46,930 --> 00:23:48,730
just in an amazing way.

507
00:23:49,060 --> 00:23:50,860
Again, incredibly positive.

508
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,730
But you've got to remember that most of
the people who come to work for Oxfam

509
00:23:54,060 --> 00:23:56,330
come with a passion to change the world

510
00:23:56,660 --> 00:23:58,130
and not necessarily
to change the world

511
00:23:58,460 --> 00:24:00,430
through the mechanisms
the organization wants.

512
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:02,830
So the balance of passion and chaos

513
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:05,630
is quite an interesting one in Oxfam.

514
00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:06,800
And that's the second point,

515
00:24:07,130 --> 00:24:11,500
about trying to help people
understand the key directions

516
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:12,730
that we're trying to move in,

517
00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:15,630
that it's not just okay to
do anything and everything,

518
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:17,560
that we are skilled in certain areas,

519
00:24:17,900 --> 00:24:21,330
that there are strategic directions
that the organization has taken.

520
00:24:21,660 --> 00:24:24,100
And a real key to
distributive leadership is

521
00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:27,560
to get people in key positions
that really understand

522
00:24:27,900 --> 00:24:29,530
so that they can
take their staff forward

523
00:24:29,860 --> 00:24:31,630
at least with some sense of direction

524
00:24:31,960 --> 00:24:32,930
and some sense of the boundaries.

525
00:24:33,260 --> 00:24:34,560
And for me,

526
00:24:34,900 --> 00:24:37,260
it's those people who are
the Country Program Managers,

527
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:39,430
the absolute key pivotal points

528
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,030
who have to understand
the sort of overall shape of

529
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:43,660
where we're going.

530
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,000
And of course, the last one is

531
00:24:45,330 --> 00:24:47,760
to try togive people the skills to do
what we want them to do,

532
00:24:48,100 --> 00:24:50,430
so they can actually
make the right decisions.

533
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:52,130
Again, very complicated,

534
00:24:52,460 --> 00:24:56,200
with four and a half thousand staff
in those developing countries,

535
00:24:56,530 --> 00:24:57,700
a thousand in the UK,

536
00:24:58,030 --> 00:25:01,400
to really, really
help support national staff.

537
00:25:01,730 --> 00:25:04,860
Because 95% of our staff are nationals
of the countries concerned,

538
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:06,660
to get those basic skills,

539
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:08,460
so they do know how to operate,

540
00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,200
how to really listen
to the local communities,

541
00:25:11,530 --> 00:25:12,600
how to really plan well,

542
00:25:12,930 --> 00:25:14,400
how to deliver.

543
00:25:14,730 --> 00:25:17,000
So there's some real challenges in that.

544
00:25:17,330 --> 00:25:23,230
And I guess my two points about what
I think is really key to where I sit,

545
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:25,000
to how to help that happen.

546
00:25:26,700 --> 00:25:28,400
is you have to demonstrate
it all the time.

547
00:25:28,730 --> 00:25:30,300
You have to demonstrate the values.

548
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:34,360
Everybody in the organization knows
how you behave all the time.

549
00:25:34,700 --> 00:25:37,030
And I'll tell you,
if I flew Business Class,

550
00:25:37,360 --> 00:25:39,360
I would be getting
letters back from staff,

551
00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:40,900
you know, the next day,
saying, you know,

552
00:25:41,230 --> 00:25:44,230
"Why are you wasting money
for Oxfam that way?"

553
00:25:44,560 --> 00:25:47,160
Everything you do is known,

554
00:25:47,500 --> 00:25:48,700
and you have to remember that all the time.

555
00:25:49,030 --> 00:25:53,460
And it's not just me, it's senior
staff right across the organization.

556
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:54,530
But the second thing,

557
00:25:54,860 --> 00:25:56,960
and the most important thing of all,
is communication.

558
00:25:57,300 --> 00:26:03,500
Communicate until you just you know,
until there is nowhere else to go.

559
00:26:03,830 --> 00:26:06,000
Clearly, you've got to communicate down
through your management lines.

560
00:26:06,330 --> 00:26:07,000
That's very important.

561
00:26:07,330 --> 00:26:10,200
But equally,
it's ways to communicate,

562
00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:12,860
actually, for me, directly to staff.

563
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:14,500
I write to all staff regularly,

564
00:26:14,830 --> 00:26:15,230
once a month.

565
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:16,300
And by all staff I mean

566
00:26:16,630 --> 00:26:20,330
every driver and receptionist in all
those countries gets to see my letter.

567
00:26:20,660 --> 00:26:21,500
And they're quite chatty letters.

568
00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:23,230
They're not about policy.

569
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,300
But they're trying to
give a sense of direction,

570
00:26:26,630 --> 00:26:26,930
a steer to the organization.

571
00:26:27,260 --> 00:26:28,060
Those are important,

572
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:29,960
but there's also cross communication.

573
00:26:30,300 --> 00:26:32,030
Getting our workers
in different countries,

574
00:26:32,360 --> 00:26:33,600
who are working on the same things,

575
00:26:33,930 --> 00:26:34,830
to talk to each other.

576
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:36,030
The HIV/AIDS thing,

577
00:26:36,360 --> 00:26:38,500
working across different countries,

578
00:26:39,130 --> 00:26:40,930
you spend your time communicating

579
00:26:41,260 --> 00:26:42,360
not only for learning

580
00:26:42,700 --> 00:26:43,100
but in fact,

581
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:45,300
actually for building a family sense

582
00:26:45,630 --> 00:26:48,160
right across the organization.

583
00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:49,360
So it's quite a challenge

584
00:26:49,700 --> 00:26:52,030
but it's sort of a
rather fantastic one.

585
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:56,330
Great, so two
very different organizations,

586
00:26:56,660 --> 00:27:01,060
each of which is showing different ways of

587
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,560
demonstrating distributed leadership.

588
00:27:03,900 --> 00:27:05,530
And a couple of parallels that have come up,

589
00:27:05,860 --> 00:27:07,600
as both of you have demonstrated,

590
00:27:07,930 --> 00:27:11,030
is this notion of constantly talking
about the vision and the mission,

591
00:27:11,360 --> 00:27:13,300
and making clear that everybody
in the organization

592
00:27:13,630 --> 00:27:15,730
is clear about what those are.

593
00:27:16,060 --> 00:27:19,660
Teaching the skills to the
people throughout the organization,

594
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,160
and communicate,
communicate, communicate,

595
00:27:22,500 --> 00:27:26,130
as a key task at the executive level.

596
00:27:26,730 --> 00:27:29,730
I guess what I'd like to
pose to you a little bit

597
00:27:30,060 --> 00:27:33,000
when we introduce the notion
of distributed leadership

598
00:27:33,330 --> 00:27:35,660
to managers who come to Sloan,

599
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:39,500
two areas of fear emerge immediately.

600
00:27:39,830 --> 00:27:41,700
One is,

601
00:27:42,030 --> 00:27:43,030
"How can I distribute leadership?

602
00:27:43,360 --> 00:27:45,700
People don't want to take
on the role of the leader.

603
00:27:46,030 --> 00:27:47,760
It's a scary role.

604
00:27:48,100 --> 00:27:49,300
It's one where you can get in trouble.

605
00:27:49,630 --> 00:27:51,430
It's one where you can get blamed.

606
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,300
So I can't distribute leadership

607
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:55,200
because people are not
going to rise to the occasion

608
00:27:55,530 --> 00:28:00,230
and take on those leadership rules
that you articulated so well."

609
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:01,500
And on the other side,

610
00:28:01,830 --> 00:28:04,000
"Well, if I do distribute leadership,

611
00:28:04,330 --> 00:28:07,230
how am I going to deal with all
these people who are out on their own,

612
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:11,430
creating some chaotic mess that
I have no control over."

613
00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:12,630
So the loss of control

614
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,530
in giving people that leadership.

615
00:28:15,860 --> 00:28:19,360
So both of you have spoken about how
this works in your organizations.

616
00:28:19,700 --> 00:28:21,660
I wonder if you could kind
of address those two issues.

617
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:25,630
How do you create a culture
that encourages people to step up

618
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:27,560
and to take leadership on,

619
00:28:27,900 --> 00:28:28,560
as well as,

620
00:28:28,900 --> 00:28:32,400
how do you exhibit control over what
some of those folks are doing?

621
00:28:32,730 --> 00:28:33,400
Or don't you?

622
00:28:33,730 --> 00:28:35,600
Maybe that's another
one of my questions.

623
00:28:35,930 --> 00:28:37,300
Either one of you.

624
00:28:37,630 --> 00:28:42,360
Selecting the right
leaders is very important.

625
00:28:42,700 --> 00:28:45,500
And not everybody's
cut out to be a leader.

626
00:28:45,830 --> 00:28:46,330
Not everybody wants to be a leader.

627
00:28:46,660 --> 00:28:47,360
And that's fine.

628
00:28:47,700 --> 00:28:52,930
Really, I think if somebody doesn't
want to assume the responsibility

629
00:28:53,260 --> 00:28:56,860
for helping other people to accomplish
the mission of the organization,

630
00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,100
then the worst disservice
they could to themselves

631
00:28:59,430 --> 00:29:02,300
and others would be
to assume a leadership role.

632
00:29:02,630 --> 00:29:06,830
And the other part of
the equation there is that

633
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:10,860
I think that I mentioned earlier
the importance of frontline leadership.

634
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,160
Those positions are the most
difficult to fill with good people

635
00:29:16,500 --> 00:29:19,900
because frequently people are
coming from the ranks of workers.

636
00:29:20,230 --> 00:29:24,700
And sometimes people are selected
because they were great workers.

637
00:29:25,030 --> 00:29:26,360
Or sometimes they're selected

638
00:29:26,700 --> 00:29:29,300
because they're ambitious to
move up in the organization.

639
00:29:29,630 --> 00:29:34,130
Neither of those things is a
qualification for being a great leader.

640
00:29:34,460 --> 00:29:35,330
I mean, to be a great leader,

641
00:29:35,660 --> 00:29:37,700
you have to have a
passion for your mission.

642
00:29:38,030 --> 00:29:40,800
You have to really care
about your people.

643
00:29:41,130 --> 00:29:43,530
You have to have integrity.

644
00:29:43,860 --> 00:29:48,830
You have to care about helping other
people to accomplish the mission.

645
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,300
And so selecting the right
people is very important.

646
00:29:53,630 --> 00:29:59,000
you have to recognize that if you're
going to allow people to make decisions

647
00:29:59,330 --> 00:30:00,960
and to take a leadership role,

648
00:30:01,300 --> 00:30:03,030
people are human.

649
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:04,360
They're going to make mistakes.

650
00:30:04,700 --> 00:30:09,400
And there's a natural tendency
on the part of all of us,

651
00:30:09,730 --> 00:30:10,430
I think, to want to control everything.

652
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:12,760
I mean, let's be honest.

653
00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:14,900
People who have risen to the
top level of an organization

654
00:30:15,230 --> 00:30:16,830
got there by being perfectionists,

655
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,960
by making sure everything was perfect.

656
00:30:20,300 --> 00:30:24,360
And you have to be willing
to accept the fact that

657
00:30:24,700 --> 00:30:26,800
in a world of chaos,

658
00:30:27,130 --> 00:30:29,200
as Barbara described it,

659
00:30:29,530 --> 00:30:30,430
not everything is going to be perfect,

660
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,700
not every decision is
going to be made perfectly.

661
00:30:33,030 --> 00:30:35,160
But you want people to move
in the right direction,

662
00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:36,800
You want them to understand the mission,

663
00:30:37,130 --> 00:30:38,260
the values.

664
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,400
You want to give them the tools
to make good decisions.

665
00:30:40,730 --> 00:30:44,430
And beyond that I'll just add that,

666
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:45,160
in my opinion,

667
00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:48,100
the role of leadership is not
just about making decisions.

668
00:30:48,430 --> 00:30:49,360
It's much more than that.

669
00:30:49,700 --> 00:30:50,000
It really is.

670
00:30:50,330 --> 00:30:51,200
You said communicate.

671
00:30:51,530 --> 00:30:54,660
And it's not just a matter of
top management communicating.

672
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,800
It's a matter of leaders at
all levels communicating,

673
00:30:59,130 --> 00:31:00,960
so that they're communicating
what the mission is,

674
00:31:01,300 --> 00:31:03,060
so that the front
line employees understand

675
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:04,460
what the mission is,

676
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,160
how they fit into
accomplishing that mission,

677
00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:11,160
and how that relates to
other people's roles as well.

678
00:31:13,230 --> 00:31:15,530
I mean, I'd agree
with an awful lot of that.

679
00:31:15,860 --> 00:31:17,300
I guess for us

680
00:31:17,630 --> 00:31:19,460
the real issues in the local leadership

681
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,830
is about getting
enough of the skilled people.

682
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,400
It's not hard to get
people to step up

683
00:31:24,730 --> 00:31:26,930
because they are so
passionate about the mission.

684
00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:28,500
But it is the whole issue about,

685
00:31:28,830 --> 00:31:30,360
do people actually have
the skills to do it?

686
00:31:30,700 --> 00:31:33,160
And it's not just the
visionary leadership skills.

687
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:35,230
It is the day to day
management skills of,

688
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:36,530
you know, good people management,

689
00:31:36,860 --> 00:31:38,360
good financial management.

690
00:31:38,700 --> 00:31:40,430
And yet, we're often dealing
with people in countries

691
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:42,400
who just have not
had the opportunity

692
00:31:42,730 --> 00:31:44,100
to grow those skills.

693
00:31:44,430 --> 00:31:46,160
So if I ever feel anxious in Oxfam

694
00:31:46,500 --> 00:31:49,360
it is much more that
we're demanding more of people

695
00:31:49,700 --> 00:31:51,360
than they can possibly do.

696
00:31:51,700 --> 00:31:54,300
And yet we sort of have no choice in it
because there aren't other people around

697
00:31:54,630 --> 00:31:56,260
that you can just come in
and fill those jobs with.

698
00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:58,900
And we have to really spend our time

699
00:31:59,230 --> 00:32:01,500
really figuring out how
we can grow those people,

700
00:32:01,830 --> 00:32:03,960
grow in management
and leadership terms,

701
00:32:04,300 --> 00:32:06,600
on the ground and partly
through their jobs at least.

702
00:32:06,930 --> 00:32:09,030
You know, you can do
sort of management development.

703
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,500
But a lot of it has got
to be by coaching of others,

704
00:32:12,830 --> 00:32:13,360
in their line,

705
00:32:13,700 --> 00:32:14,130
in the management line,

706
00:32:14,460 --> 00:32:15,030
or around them,

707
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,600
to help them really grow in those roles.

708
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,500
On the control point,

709
00:32:21,830 --> 00:32:23,860
yeah, it is a bit odd isn't it.

710
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:24,500
I mean,

711
00:32:24,830 --> 00:32:25,500
you do sort of feel like

712
00:32:25,830 --> 00:32:28,360
you want to get this organization doing
exactly what you want it to do,

713
00:32:28,700 --> 00:32:31,330
but you know you can
only do it by letting go.

714
00:32:31,660 --> 00:32:35,400
And I think the point about
control is being very clear

715
00:32:35,730 --> 00:32:37,300
where some of the boundaries are.

716
00:32:37,630 --> 00:32:41,030
And making sure your local leaders know
where the boundaries are.

717
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,160
Not that sometimes the
boundaries can't be exceeded.

718
00:32:44,500 --> 00:32:47,260
But they know when they're doing it,

719
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:50,260
and they seek to
have conversations about

720
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:51,560
whether that's the right thing to do.

721
00:32:51,900 --> 00:32:53,900
Again, using my HIV/AIDS example,

722
00:32:54,230 --> 00:32:55,730
we had a lot of pressure from our staff

723
00:32:56,060 --> 00:32:58,400
who wanted to get into
health services delivery.

724
00:32:58,730 --> 00:33:00,430
But we had to make it
very clear to staff,

725
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,130
No, that isn't what
we're going to get into.

726
00:33:02,460 --> 00:33:03,130
We have something different

727
00:33:03,460 --> 00:33:04,160
and special,

728
00:33:04,500 --> 00:33:05,700
different to do.

729
00:33:06,030 --> 00:33:09,430
And that had to be reinforced
by the local leaders.

730
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:11,830
That it isn't just a free-for-all.

731
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:13,460
It is actually,
there are some boundaries.

732
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,400
But within that,
there is enormous freedom to do,

733
00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:17,660
to shape it within that.

734
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:19,100
But there are some edges.

735
00:33:19,430 --> 00:33:21,130
There are some edges on
some of the control things.

736
00:33:21,460 --> 00:33:24,030
You know, obviously things
like finance and so on.

737
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,800
And for us, things like issues
about treating beneficiaries,

738
00:33:27,130 --> 00:33:28,400
thinks like sexual abuse and so on.

739
00:33:28,730 --> 00:33:30,560
There are real no-no areas,

740
00:33:30,900 --> 00:33:32,160
and you've got to be
very clear*

741
00:33:32,500 --> 00:33:35,460
so people know,
feel comfortable in that room

742
00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,830
that they're operating in.

743
00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:38,560
But as I said,

744
00:33:38,900 --> 00:33:42,060
you've got some flexibility that
the local leaders can bring stuff up,

745
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,500
and say,"I think we ought to be
moving a bit in that direction."

746
00:33:44,830 --> 00:33:46,260
But they know when to refer

747
00:33:48,270 --> 00:33:49,460
they know when issues might
be changing the direction,

748
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:52,500
or be very serious
reputational issues for us.

749
00:33:52,830 --> 00:33:56,030
You've got to get your local leaders
to understand that as well.

750
00:33:57,730 --> 00:33:59,400
It speaks well for the
passion of your organization

751
00:33:59,730 --> 00:34:03,100
that you have people out there
who want to push the boundaries,

752
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:04,030
who want to extend the mission.

753
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:09,530
And sometimes it's easier
to rein people in and say,

754
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,060
rather than if you had the
opposite problem of trying to

755
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:14,160
motivate people to want to do something.

756
00:34:14,500 --> 00:34:14,760
It's true.

757
00:34:15,100 --> 00:34:17,730
Except that you never feel that you
want to stop people doing it.

758
00:34:18,060 --> 00:34:20,360
You know, you want that
imagination and initiative.

759
00:34:20,700 --> 00:34:23,260
You now, and it's then hard if
when you spot it and you just think,

760
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,430
"Oh no, we can't be going there,"

761
00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:26,460
and bring them back.

762
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,260
You now, that's why you hope that the
local leader is explaining enough,

763
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:30,360
where the edge is,

764
00:34:30,700 --> 00:34:33,360
so you don't get into
a pulling back state really.

765
00:34:34,630 --> 00:34:35,400
So that's great.

766
00:34:35,730 --> 00:34:39,060
Both of you agreed around
this notion of setting boundaries

767
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:40,560
and having freedom within,

768
00:34:40,900 --> 00:34:44,130
so that way you can let people go
and do whatever they want.

769
00:34:44,460 --> 00:34:46,000
I'm feeling a little bit this is,

770
00:34:46,330 --> 00:34:48,530
we're talking a little bit
at the abstract level.

771
00:34:48,860 --> 00:34:52,130
And I wonder if each of you
might give us some descriptions

772
00:34:52,460 --> 00:34:55,230
of some of the leaders that
exist in your organizations.

773
00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:57,030
So, if it's not just you at the top,

774
00:34:57,360 --> 00:34:58,630
who are the people who have emerged,

775
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,400
and a little bit of their stories.

776
00:35:00,730 --> 00:35:01,930
How did you find them?

777
00:35:02,260 --> 00:35:03,830
And how did they exert their leadership?

778
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,630
What are some stories of folks
within Oxfam and Southwest?

779
00:35:10,230 --> 00:35:11,330
You want to go first?

780
00:35:11,660 --> 00:35:13,360
I'll give you one of...

781
00:35:13,700 --> 00:35:15,830
The one person who comes
to mind in my organization

782
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:17,200
is an amazing man.

783
00:35:17,530 --> 00:35:18,460
His name is Mohammed Elmi.

784
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:19,800
He's Kenyan.

785
00:35:20,130 --> 00:35:21,330
And he actually is a pastoralist

786
00:35:21,660 --> 00:35:23,030
from the north of Kenya.

787
00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:25,000
And he was one of a family...

788
00:35:25,330 --> 00:35:28,360
he was the one child that
the uncle in town could,

789
00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:29,630
you know, afford to educate.

790
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,730
He said, "I can take one child,"

791
00:35:32,060 --> 00:35:33,330
and so Mohammed was sent,

792
00:35:33,660 --> 00:35:34,360
and he got educated.

793
00:35:34,700 --> 00:35:38,200
And he did various jobs
with other organizations

794
00:35:38,500 --> 00:35:42,200
and eventually became
the Country Program Manager.

795
00:35:42,530 --> 00:35:46,460
And he is quite an outstanding
and incredible person,

796
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:49,760
because he's come from
that very different background.

797
00:35:50,100 --> 00:35:53,500
And yet, both understands
how to work with local people

798
00:35:53,830 --> 00:35:55,160
which you might expect.

799
00:35:55,500 --> 00:36:01,200
But he also understands the need
for direction and management and control,

800
00:36:01,530 --> 00:36:03,260
which is quite unbelievable in a way,

801
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:04,600
from that area.

802
00:36:04,930 --> 00:36:07,330
And he's run our Kenya program.

803
00:36:07,660 --> 00:36:11,660
And he's now the regional Program Manager
within the horn in East Africa.

804
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:17,060
And he has an amazing skill of
working with the people in country

805
00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,530
to help them develop their own programs.

806
00:36:19,860 --> 00:36:23,130
And he's one of those leaders
who can not only lead himself,

807
00:36:23,460 --> 00:36:26,330
but can work along side people
to grow their leadership.

808
00:36:26,660 --> 00:36:27,760
So, in another,

809
00:36:28,100 --> 00:36:29,100
Ethiopia for example,

810
00:36:29,430 --> 00:36:30,260
he's working with them now

811
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,630
to think through how

812
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,430
we could help through
our agricultural program,

813
00:36:34,760 --> 00:36:37,130
much greater impact across the country.

814
00:36:37,460 --> 00:36:41,100
And he knows exactly
how to work with people

815
00:36:41,430 --> 00:36:44,200
to engage them in questioning, actually,

816
00:36:44,530 --> 00:36:45,760
about what they've thought about,

817
00:36:46,100 --> 00:36:46,960
what they're already good at,

818
00:36:47,300 --> 00:36:49,200
how they could extend this program.

819
00:36:49,530 --> 00:36:51,430
So that's...

820
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:55,200
I suppose he's my most
admired leader in Oxfam.

821
00:36:55,530 --> 00:36:56,800
You know,
somebody who's done it and led,

822
00:36:57,130 --> 00:36:58,500
like the Country Program,

823
00:36:58,830 --> 00:37:02,260
but can do that coaching
and nurturing as well.

824
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,660
Well, in...

825
00:37:06,130 --> 00:37:10,000
I think I can honestly
say in the 25 years

826
00:37:10,330 --> 00:37:13,860
I was associated
with Southwest Airlines,

827
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,760
I never heard a corporate
officer stand up at a meeting,

828
00:37:19,100 --> 00:37:20,030
or at any meeting,

829
00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,960
a management meeting or anywhere else,

830
00:37:23,300 --> 00:37:26,360
and when asked about the
accomplishments of their department,

831
00:37:26,700 --> 00:37:32,860
start off by saying what
they had done individually.

832
00:37:33,200 --> 00:37:35,060
The focus is always on what
the people have done

833
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,860
and that's very legitimate because
that's really where the ideas come from,

834
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,730
and where the leadership comes
from within an organization.

835
00:37:45,060 --> 00:37:50,000
And a couple of examples I've used,

836
00:37:50,330 --> 00:37:53,900
when Southwest Airlines faced a crisis,

837
00:37:54,230 --> 00:37:54,930
an internal crisis,

838
00:37:55,260 --> 00:37:58,260
business crisis in 1994

839
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:04,330
because our competitors locked us out
of their computer reservations systems

840
00:38:04,660 --> 00:38:09,130
which printed the tickets
that customers then relied upon

841
00:38:09,460 --> 00:38:12,760
to fly,

842
00:38:13,100 --> 00:38:18,760
we decided we had a great
anti-trust lawsuit,

843
00:38:19,100 --> 00:38:23,095
but if we decided to pursue
our legal remedies,

844
00:38:23,130 --> 00:38:27,360
we could sit around and watch
our business dissipate while we,

845
00:38:27,700 --> 00:38:28,060
you know,

846
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,530
hoped for a court victory
some years down the road.

847
00:38:31,860 --> 00:38:33,930
We had to come up
with a business response.

848
00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,160
our leaders at the technical
services level came up with a response.

849
00:38:38,500 --> 00:38:40,300
And they created a system,

850
00:38:40,630 --> 00:38:43,100
they figured out how we could
use existing technology,

851
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:44,360
existing equipment,

852
00:38:44,700 --> 00:38:46,830
to turn our system into
a ticketless system.

853
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,400
And Southwest Airlines
became the first airline

854
00:38:49,730 --> 00:38:52,530
major airline to
offer ticketless transportation,

855
00:38:52,860 --> 00:38:55,330
doing so years ahead
of the competition

856
00:38:55,660 --> 00:39:00,400
because these people who might not
have otherwise been listened to,

857
00:39:00,730 --> 00:39:03,560
if you had a hierarchal organization
where you counted on the research

858
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:05,600
and development department
to come up with all the ideas,

859
00:39:05,930 --> 00:39:08,400
and they had to percolate
down through the democracy.

860
00:39:08,730 --> 00:39:10,830
The idea came up from the bottom.

861
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:17,230
And it was the leaders at
that level who developed the idea

862
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,400
and really saved our business.

863
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:21,430
It sounds Jim,

864
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:22,200
that actually,

865
00:39:22,530 --> 00:39:24,660
a lot of what happened to you...

866
00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,400
clearly, the way you ran the
organization allowed people to do that.

867
00:39:28,730 --> 00:39:32,160
But it was really helped along by
this horrible outside-world challenge.

868
00:39:32,500 --> 00:39:33,500
You know, actually the world...

869
00:39:33,830 --> 00:39:34,160
you know,

870
00:39:34,500 --> 00:39:36,900
you described various moments
when the world was absolutely

871
00:39:37,230 --> 00:39:38,330
set against you.

872
00:39:38,660 --> 00:39:40,600
And it sounds like the people,

873
00:39:40,930 --> 00:39:41,400
you know, the staff,

874
00:39:41,730 --> 00:39:43,730
really had such motivation,*

875
00:39:45,060 --> 00:39:47,060
you know,
to keep this company going.

876
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:48,015
That they really, you know¡K

877
00:39:48,050 --> 00:39:48,630
Yeah.  You're absolutely right.

878
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,130
Crisis really does bring about,

879
00:39:51,460 --> 00:39:53,130
sometimes, radical change.

880
00:39:53,460 --> 00:39:57,430
And you can't wait for

881
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,460
a bureaucratic response
to that situation.

882
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:03,500
You've people out there somewhere

883
00:40:03,830 --> 00:40:04,760
who know the organization.

884
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:07,495
I mean, that's one thing
that's impressed me.

885
00:40:07,530 --> 00:40:09,230
I've had limited
experience with consultants,

886
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,260
and there are probably some
people in the audience here

887
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:12,230
who are professional consultants.

888
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:14,260
But what a good consultant does,

889
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,100
they come in and tell you
what resources you already have.

890
00:40:18,430 --> 00:40:21,500
They tell you what the people
in your organization know

891
00:40:21,830 --> 00:40:22,930
that maybe top
management doesn't know.

892
00:40:23,260 --> 00:40:26,100
And if top management is
listening to their people,

893
00:40:26,430 --> 00:40:29,200
listening to their leaders at all
levels throughout their organization,

894
00:40:29,530 --> 00:40:31,930
they have that
information available to them.

895
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:35,530
Before we open it up a little,

896
00:40:35,860 --> 00:40:37,230
I guess I have a question
for each of you.

897
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:39,360
Do either of you have
questions for each other,

898
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:42,200
given that you're here,

899
00:40:42,530 --> 00:40:44,500
two people who run, or ran,

900
00:40:44,830 --> 00:40:46,730
similar kinds of organizations?

901
00:40:47,500 --> 00:40:49,030
I've got one for you, which is,

902
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:50,830
in a much more...

903
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:52,060
in an airline business,

904
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:54,900
which clearly doesn't
have the same obvious passion

905
00:40:55,230 --> 00:40:56,860
as solving the world's poverty,
you know,

906
00:40:57,860 --> 00:40:59,560
your people are obviously
very passionate about it.

907
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,100
How do you think that
you built that passion?

908
00:41:02,430 --> 00:41:04,160
I think part of it is

909
00:41:04,500 --> 00:41:08,330
that we have had so many crises,

910
00:41:08,660 --> 00:41:09,730
so many external forces

911
00:41:10,060 --> 00:41:13,600
and our people really do have a view
that they're on a mission.

912
00:41:13,930 --> 00:41:15,430
We coined the term,

913
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:17,130
"Giving America the freedom to fly."

914
00:41:17,460 --> 00:41:19,800
And there's a lot
involved in that, really.

915
00:41:21,460 --> 00:41:22,460
Making air travel affordable,

916
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:23,500
making it pleasant,

917
00:41:23,830 --> 00:41:25,000
making it fun.

918
00:41:25,330 --> 00:41:30,300
And we know that we're
the low-fare provider

919
00:41:30,630 --> 00:41:35,230
and that competitive forces
are going to be aligned against us.

920
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:39,860
Beyond that, our employees
feel a sense of ownership.

921
00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,200
And it's ownership in an emotional sense

922
00:41:42,530 --> 00:41:43,700
in that

923
00:41:44,030 --> 00:41:46,260
they feel that they
participate in decision making,

924
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,160
they participate in ideas,

925
00:41:49,500 --> 00:41:52,760
and they have financial
ownership in the company.

926
00:41:53,100 --> 00:41:53,230
Almost,

927
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:59,100
virtually all of our employees
have stock or stock options.

928
00:41:59,430 --> 00:42:03,760
We created the very first employee profit
sharing plan in the industry in 1973,

929
00:42:04,100 --> 00:42:05,360
the very first year we made a profit.

930
00:42:05,700 --> 00:42:06,560
And every year since that time,

931
00:42:06,900 --> 00:42:12,100
we have taken approximately 15%
of our pre-tax operating profit

932
00:42:12,430 --> 00:42:15,430
and dedicated it to an
employee profit sharing plan.

933
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:16,460
Most of the employees,

934
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:18,530
they don't have to,
but most of them choose

935
00:42:18,860 --> 00:42:21,460
to invest that in
Southwest Airlines stock

936
00:42:21,800 --> 00:42:23,830
through a deferred compensation program.

937
00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:27,900
So they really have a sense
of ownership in the enterprise.

938
00:42:29,730 --> 00:42:30,700
Well,

939
00:42:31,030 --> 00:42:35,360
I think you've answered some
of the questions I have.

940
00:42:35,700 --> 00:42:38,960
But I'll just ask you this,

941
00:42:39,300 --> 00:42:40,460
how do you maintain,

942
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,300
with the worldwide network
that you have,

943
00:42:44,630 --> 00:42:46,700
how do you maintain

944
00:42:49,930 --> 00:42:51,630
contact with people you have to¡K

945
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:53,300
I got asked this a lot

946
00:42:53,630 --> 00:42:57,100
when our company just got big enough to be
spread out across the United States.

947
00:42:57,430 --> 00:43:00,600
But how do you maintain that
communication with your people

948
00:43:00,930 --> 00:43:03,160
in order to maintain
the consistency of the vision

949
00:43:03,500 --> 00:43:06,730
and the mission that
you want them to understand?

950
00:43:07,100 --> 00:43:10,560
I think it is this issue about using
every means that you possibly can.

951
00:43:10,900 --> 00:43:12,165
I mean,

952
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:13,000
you know, I've emphasized that,

953
00:43:13,330 --> 00:43:16,500
for example, the Country Program Managers
for us are really key people,

954
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:19,530
and they've got to, you know,
get it, get where we are.

955
00:43:19,860 --> 00:43:20,300
For example,

956
00:43:20,630 --> 00:43:23,230
we've just had all of them into Oxford.

957
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:24,730
We only do this every two years

958
00:43:25,060 --> 00:43:26,100
because it's a lot of money to do it,

959
00:43:26,430 --> 00:43:28,000
but really think
it's really worthwhile,

960
00:43:28,330 --> 00:43:31,130
you know, bringing those seventy
people together to really, really,

961
00:43:31,460 --> 00:43:35,830
not just work with us
in this headquarters function,

962
00:43:36,500 --> 00:43:38,200
Because so much of
this maintaining the vision

963
00:43:38,860 --> 00:43:40,230
is done by reinforcement of the peers.

964
00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:41,130
It's not done,

965
00:43:41,460 --> 00:43:42,130
you know, that way down.

966
00:43:42,460 --> 00:43:45,130
It's people working
across and reinforcing

967
00:43:45,460 --> 00:43:48,900
and supporting and sharing
each other's problems and things.

968
00:43:49,230 --> 00:43:50,500
But actually,

969
00:43:50,830 --> 00:43:51,330
it's doing it every way.

970
00:43:51,660 --> 00:43:53,330
I mean, when I leave here,

971
00:43:53,660 --> 00:43:55,430
I'm going off to Columbia and Peru

972
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,100
to meet our teams down there.

973
00:43:57,430 --> 00:44:00,600
And there's something about
when you're with them.

974
00:44:00,930 --> 00:44:03,230
People always laugh
because I don't do any business

975
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,630
when I'm on visits.

976
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,200
I don't do any emails,
unless it's something,

977
00:44:08,530 --> 00:44:10,130
I mean, very, very rare.

978
00:44:10,460 --> 00:44:12,330
When you go, you go to be with them.

979
00:44:12,660 --> 00:44:13,730
And I go to travel with them.

980
00:44:14,060 --> 00:44:17,160
I go to see, where, you know,
the back of beyond where they're working.

981
00:44:17,500 --> 00:44:18,500
You know, it's got to be that.

982
00:44:18,830 --> 00:44:22,060
You've got to go and
live with them as well.

983
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,260
And it doesn't matter that
I can't go to all seventy countries.

984
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:25,625
They know that I go.

985
00:44:25,660 --> 00:44:27,200
They know about these visits.

986
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:28,930
They email each other.

987
00:44:29,260 --> 00:44:31,600
You know, and it's not just me.

988
00:44:31,830 --> 00:44:34,030
It's not a one-person thing.

989
00:44:34,065 --> 00:44:36,230
It is about the human contact,

990
00:44:36,265 --> 00:44:36,795
you know,

991
00:44:36,830 --> 00:44:39,860
but keep building
amongst each other really.

992
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:45,330
What is the biggest headache?

993
00:44:45,660 --> 00:44:47,000
The thing that keeps
you awake at night,

994
00:44:47,330 --> 00:44:48,930
the biggest difficulty

995
00:44:50,260 --> 00:44:51,560
in running this kind of organization?

996
00:44:54,230 --> 00:44:57,730
Well, since I'm now retired
from the airline industry,

997
00:44:58,730 --> 00:45:00,200
as I like to tell
my successor Gary Kelly,

998
00:45:00,530 --> 00:45:03,400
I sure enjoy reading about
the airline industry

999
00:45:03,730 --> 00:45:05,060
but it's a great
business not to be in.

1000
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:11,830
But going back in time.

1001
00:45:11,865 --> 00:45:13,030
Oh,

1002
00:45:15,260 --> 00:45:18,800
well I think going back in time what...

1003
00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:20,300
the biggest concern we had,

1004
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:21,760
in my opinion,

1005
00:45:22,100 --> 00:45:26,530
was maintaining the
focus of our employees,

1006
00:45:26,860 --> 00:45:28,400
maintaining the
commitment of our employees,

1007
00:45:28,730 --> 00:45:30,560
the understanding of our employees,

1008
00:45:30,900 --> 00:45:32,700
as to what our mission was
and what their role was,

1009
00:45:33,030 --> 00:45:38,230
and how their personal
success was inextricably tied

1010
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:41,230
to the success of
the overall organization.

1011
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:45,530
And it's a constant
effort at communication.

1012
00:45:45,860 --> 00:45:48,700
And it involves

1013
00:45:49,700 --> 00:45:50,600
people throughout the organization

1014
00:45:50,930 --> 00:45:52,260
understanding and
sharing the culture,

1015
00:45:52,600 --> 00:45:56,300
sharing it with new people
who come into the organization,

1016
00:45:56,430 --> 00:45:57,560
continuing,

1017
00:45:57,900 --> 00:45:59,730
breathing culture.

1018
00:46:01,130 --> 00:46:06,460
And I think my biggest issue is
actually working beyond the organization.

1019
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:07,830
For example,

1020
00:46:08,830 --> 00:46:10,800
although Oxfam GB is the biggest
and oldest of the Oxfams,

1021
00:46:11,130 --> 00:46:14,330
we're now in the Oxfam
international family of twelve Oxfams.

1022
00:46:17,460 --> 00:46:17,660
Obviously,

1023
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:20,400
when we sit together as
the sort of Board of Directors,

1024
00:46:20,730 --> 00:46:23,830
it's one person, one vote sort of thing.

1025
00:46:23,865 --> 00:46:24,330
it doesn't matter, you know,

1026
00:46:24,660 --> 00:46:26,300
how long you've been around.

1027
00:46:26,630 --> 00:46:30,260
But we do do a lot of the
humanitarian work for the whole family,

1028
00:46:30,600 --> 00:46:31,230
and we do a lot of the policy work.

1029
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:32,330
So for me,

1030
00:46:32,660 --> 00:46:34,330
it's this business about...

1031
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:36,800
actually, it's about when to compromise.

1032
00:46:37,130 --> 00:46:37,460
You know,

1033
00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,500
making decisions about
when you go with things

1034
00:46:39,830 --> 00:46:44,160
because they're going to have a bigger
impact by us all going together,

1035
00:46:44,500 --> 00:46:47,060
even though,
where I'm coming from in Oxfam GB,

1036
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:48,600
it may not seem quite like
the right thing for me to do.

1037
00:46:49,600 --> 00:46:52,060
And it's not just simply the Oxfam family.

1038
00:46:52,700 --> 00:46:54,230
You know,
the Make Poverty History alliance.

1039
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,160
That has been an
enormous challenge this year,

1040
00:46:58,500 --> 00:46:59,030
to really sort of say,

1041
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,000
you know, when G8 comes
out with its statement,

1042
00:47:02,330 --> 00:47:05,100
we've got to make one
common position on this

1043
00:47:05,430 --> 00:47:06,200
because we just get
picked apart if we don't.

1044
00:47:06,530 --> 00:47:08,360
How do we get 420 agencies

1045
00:47:08,700 --> 00:47:11,200
to really sign up to something
that we can all stand by

1046
00:47:11,530 --> 00:47:13,530
and yet not have that
lowest common denominator?

1047
00:47:13,860 --> 00:47:15,530
So actually,

1048
00:47:15,860 --> 00:47:17,960
working together with other people

1049
00:47:18,300 --> 00:47:19,000
for the greater good,

1050
00:47:19,330 --> 00:47:21,030
for the greater set of change,

1051
00:47:23,300 --> 00:47:26,860
but not compromising on
your absolute fundamental beliefs.

1052
00:47:26,895 --> 00:47:29,100
that's the thing that
I find the most difficult,

1053
00:47:29,430 --> 00:47:30,500
that I worry about the most.

1054
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:35,300
Okay, I think this is probably
a good time to stop for a second.

1055
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,600
And what we're going to ask is that

1056
00:47:38,260 --> 00:47:40,460
you all talk to some of the folks
that are around you

1057
00:47:40,800 --> 00:47:42,200
for just a few minutes,

1058
00:47:42,530 --> 00:47:44,630
to get reactions,

1059
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:45,560
thoughts,

1060
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,960
questions about what
we've discussed so far,

1061
00:47:49,300 --> 00:47:49,400
and where you might like this go.

1062
00:47:49,730 --> 00:47:54,230
So if you could have a little
conversation with those folks,

1063
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:55,930
and write your questions down,

1064
00:47:56,260 --> 00:47:56,530
and then we'll address them.

1065
00:47:57,300 --> 00:47:58,200
Just turn around,

1066
00:47:58,530 --> 00:48:00,500
talk to some of
the people around you.

1067
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,000
Okay, well we can go.

1068
00:48:06,330 --> 00:48:07,230
Okay,

1069
00:50:37,630 --> 00:50:39,460
if we could all come back.

1070
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,230
Obviously, there's
lots of discussion going on.

1071
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:45,660
That's quite useful.

1072
00:50:46,800 --> 00:50:48,030
Okay, let's...

1073
00:50:48,360 --> 00:50:51,260
there are a lot of
different kinds of questions.

1074
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,230
I'm going to start with this one:

1075
00:50:53,560 --> 00:50:55,160
"You both seem to work in organizations

1076
00:50:55,500 --> 00:50:59,260
where distributed leadership has been
part of the organizations' DNA

1077
00:50:59,600 --> 00:50:59,660
since they were created.

1078
00:51:00,660 --> 00:51:03,430
What is your advice for organizations
which are highly hierarchal,

1079
00:51:03,760 --> 00:51:05,330
and heavily unionized?

1080
00:51:05,660 --> 00:51:07,300
How do you change them?

1081
00:51:07,630 --> 00:51:08,600
How do you create a new culture?

1082
00:51:08,930 --> 00:51:09,930
Where do you start?"

1083
00:51:13,530 --> 00:51:15,660
That's a great question,

1084
00:51:16,000 --> 00:51:17,030
and a tough question.

1085
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:19,460
I think

1086
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,060
one of the problems faced
in the airline industry,

1087
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,200
I'll just use that as an example,

1088
00:51:27,530 --> 00:51:28,500
from companies,

1089
00:51:28,830 --> 00:51:30,730
and it's not just airlines obviously,

1090
00:51:31,060 --> 00:51:34,160
but throughout most
of the twentieth century,

1091
00:51:34,500 --> 00:51:40,100
there was a recognized fairly bureaucratic
hierarchal system of management.

1092
00:51:40,430 --> 00:51:44,200
And it tended to treat employees as cogs.

1093
00:51:44,530 --> 00:51:50,160
It was the job of employees to
show up and do their job.

1094
00:51:50,500 --> 00:51:54,430
This led to a mentality on the part of
employees that they were just cogs.

1095
00:51:54,760 --> 00:51:57,200
And it led to a mentality
on the part of management

1096
00:51:57,530 --> 00:52:03,400
that employees were simply another
capital asset to be depreciated

1097
00:52:03,730 --> 00:52:12,160
and discarded when they were no
longer economically needed.

1098
00:52:12,500 --> 00:52:17,000
This whole mentality which did not include
workers in the decision-making process

1099
00:52:17,330 --> 00:52:22,060
which really treated frontline
leaders as disciplinarians rather

1100
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:25,730
than as communicators of a
message about the corporate mission

1101
00:52:26,060 --> 00:52:31,300
and didn't really involve employees
with a sense of ownership,

1102
00:52:32,300 --> 00:52:36,100
led to an environment
of conflict between labor

1103
00:52:36,430 --> 00:52:39,730
and management that continues to threaten

1104
00:52:40,070 --> 00:52:41,060
the existence of many of
these companies to this very day.

1105
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,160
And once you have that kind of culture,

1106
00:52:44,500 --> 00:52:46,730
it is very difficult to dismantle.

1107
00:52:47,060 --> 00:52:49,630
It will take a lot of effort,

1108
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:51,630
and probably a lot of years,

1109
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:56,660
and probably an entire
new generation of workers

1110
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,230
and possibly management,

1111
00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:00,060
if the company survives that long.

1112
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:03,860
So it's a very difficult situation
once you have that culture

1113
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:05,000
to overcome it, in my opinion.

1114
00:53:05,330 --> 00:53:06,930
I'll just be honest about it.

1115
00:53:07,260 --> 00:53:08,260
Are you sucking up for the job?

1116
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:09,700
No.

1117
00:53:11,730 --> 00:53:12,960
Yeah, well, I agree.

1118
00:53:13,300 --> 00:53:15,230
I think it's a much harder question

1119
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,200
than maintaining a
culture that's in that way.

1120
00:53:17,530 --> 00:53:20,000
But that made me think back to my days
in the National Health Service.

1121
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:26,970
Because, if you like, that was considerably
more hierarchal than an Oxfam culture.

1122
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:28,000
And I think Jim's right.

1123
00:53:28,330 --> 00:53:29,660
You can't do anything suddenly.

1124
00:53:30,860 --> 00:53:33,600
you just shock the whole system
if you try to do something dramatic.

1125
00:53:33,930 --> 00:53:37,200
It's probably about gradually doing it,

1126
00:53:37,530 --> 00:53:38,230
and doing it starting with
your own team actually,

1127
00:53:38,560 --> 00:53:40,530
and some key people within the team.

1128
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:44,960
Key maybe because they are
able to operate in a different way,

1129
00:53:45,300 --> 00:53:47,300
or key because of
their particular function

1130
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:48,300
or place in the organization.

1131
00:53:48,630 --> 00:53:53,160
But try to sort of start
working in a slightly different way.

1132
00:53:53,500 --> 00:53:56,560
But with a fairly upfront agreement
about what you're doing,

1133
00:53:56,900 --> 00:53:57,560
so that, you know,

1134
00:53:57,900 --> 00:54:00,500
that people aren't surprised by
suddenly being  given more freedom,

1135
00:54:00,830 --> 00:54:03,060
that actually it is a negotiated freedom,

1136
00:54:03,900 --> 00:54:08,100
that actually you're trying to start
moving things in a different direction.

1137
00:54:09,100 --> 00:54:12,465
And gradually moving that
through an organization.

1138
00:54:12,500 --> 00:54:16,860
I can't see how you'd do it very fast
once you've got that inbuilt.

1139
00:54:18,200 --> 00:54:18,600
Except sometimes when...

1140
00:54:18,930 --> 00:54:20,260
I think the union thing is very interesting.

1141
00:54:20,600 --> 00:54:21,560
Because, of course, the NHS,

1142
00:54:21,900 --> 00:54:23,760
actually, Oxfam is unionized too,

1143
00:54:24,100 --> 00:54:28,000
but the NHS is obviously
a very big unionized outfit.

1144
00:54:28,330 --> 00:54:29,660
And sometimes what you can do more is,

1145
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:36,560
say you get to a point where you know you
cannot move on in the way you're going,

1146
00:54:36,900 --> 00:54:38,030
and really trying
to have a serious sort of,

1147
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:40,595
you know, sort of sit-down,*

1148
00:54:40,630 --> 00:54:42,330
"We have got to do some changing."

1149
00:54:42,660 --> 00:54:43,160
And again,

1150
00:54:43,500 --> 00:54:44,160
what is the terms,

1151
00:54:44,500 --> 00:54:45,100
what is the deal,

1152
00:54:45,430 --> 00:54:49,230
that can be done to actually get some
change in some of the things that

1153
00:54:49,560 --> 00:54:53,760
are being demanded by
the workforce, or whatever.

1154
00:54:53,795 --> 00:54:55,460
it's usually helped
by an outside crisis,

1155
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:57,030
either a competitive crisis,

1156
00:54:57,360 --> 00:55:00,800
or as what happened in the health services,

1157
00:55:01,130 --> 00:55:02,830
things like change of
government where suddenly,

1158
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:03,965
there is in a sense,
an imposed crisis

1159
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:07,900
where it can't go on
just being what it was

1160
00:55:08,230 --> 00:55:10,600
because that's clearly
heading for the buffers.

1161
00:55:10,635 --> 00:55:11,932
you can get some
real discussion going about

1162
00:55:11,967 --> 00:55:13,230
how we could change
and work differently.

1163
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:15,330
But I think it's really hard.

1164
00:55:15,660 --> 00:55:18,600
I guess that goes to a core
assumption of the question,

1165
00:55:18,930 --> 00:55:20,200
and perhaps of the panel,

1166
00:55:20,530 --> 00:55:21,260
as we sit here,

1167
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:25,060
that distributed leadership
is a better form of leadership.

1168
00:55:25,400 --> 00:55:27,800
And I guess the question is,

1169
00:55:28,130 --> 00:55:32,060
would you advise other people
to take on this kind of leadership?

1170
00:55:32,400 --> 00:55:34,860
Is it something that you
would advise others to do?

1171
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,700
Or, can it only exist in
certain kinds of organizations.

1172
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,130
Well, obviously,

1173
00:55:42,460 --> 00:55:47,000
companies that have a lot of historic
baggage have a more difficult challenge,

1174
00:55:47,330 --> 00:55:49,030
I think.

1175
00:55:49,360 --> 00:55:51,100
But ultimately,

1176
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:54,730
leadership comes down
to trust and respect.

1177
00:55:55,060 --> 00:56:00,830
And that has to be
developed over a period of time.

1178
00:56:01,160 --> 00:56:05,560
It has to be demonstrated at
the frontline levels.

1179
00:56:05,900 --> 00:56:10,560
It has to be developed through
relationship with top management,

1180
00:56:10,900 --> 00:56:11,460
throughout the organization.

1181
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:17,230
And we talked earlier about the difficulty
of selecting good frontline leaders.

1182
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:24,030
And historically, frontline leaders have
been selected to be disciplinarians.

1183
00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:26,660
And that role has evolved.

1184
00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,100
It has to evolve away from just being
disciplinarians and enforcers of rules,

1185
00:56:31,430 --> 00:56:35,060
into being communicators
and relationship builders.

1186
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:39,130
And I think that's going to be the key
to success in a modern organization.

1187
00:56:39,460 --> 00:56:45,900
I remember one incident
where we were involved in

1188
00:56:46,230 --> 00:56:47,400
some difficult labor negotiations with

1189
00:56:48,530 --> 00:56:51,430
a large national union, teamsters union.

1190
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,700
And we called in a mediator
from the mediation board,

1191
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:56,200
and we were in the
conference room together,

1192
00:56:56,530 --> 00:56:58,200
the very first meeting we had,

1193
00:56:58,530 --> 00:56:59,330
and we were calling each
other all kinds of names,

1194
00:56:59,660 --> 00:57:02,600
and stuff like that.

1195
00:57:02,930 --> 00:57:03,960
And finally, she said,

1196
00:57:04,300 --> 00:57:04,760
"Well, we're going to take a break."

1197
00:57:05,100 --> 00:57:06,200
And she went in and talked to them.

1198
00:57:06,530 --> 00:57:07,230
She came in and talked to us.

1199
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:08,230
She came in and said,

1200
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,230
"We had an agreement"
on some little minor issue.

1201
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:12,630
And she said,

1202
00:57:12,960 --> 00:57:16,700
"Should I draw up an agreement
for both sides to sign?"

1203
00:57:17,030 --> 00:57:17,700
And I said, "Hell no!

1204
00:57:18,030 --> 00:57:21,030
That's not the way we do
business at Southwest Airlines.

1205
00:57:21,065 --> 00:57:21,460
We work with them.

1206
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,000
We may disagree but their
word is good enough for us.

1207
00:57:25,330 --> 00:57:26,970
And you go ask them."

1208
00:57:27,500 --> 00:57:31,300
There was a relationship
of trust and respect there,

1209
00:57:31,630 --> 00:57:32,800
even when we disagreed over some issues,

1210
00:57:33,130 --> 00:57:35,960
and I think that has to be
developed over a period of time

1211
00:57:38,100 --> 00:57:38,760
Yeah,

1212
00:57:39,100 --> 00:57:42,700
I think I have to speak
with some humility in this.

1213
00:57:43,030 --> 00:57:45,830
Because I've not worked
in the private sector.

1214
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,860
I've only worked in various sort of public
and semi-public sort of organizations.

1215
00:57:50,660 --> 00:57:51,230
And I guess my feeling is,

1216
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:53,560
if you're working
in any organization

1217
00:57:53,900 --> 00:57:56,230
where the front
line is really people,

1218
00:57:56,560 --> 00:57:56,760
you know,

1219
00:57:57,100 --> 00:57:58,630
service delivery to people,

1220
00:57:58,960 --> 00:58:01,600
the more you can run
distributed organizations

1221
00:58:01,930 --> 00:58:02,630
the better actually.

1222
00:58:02,960 --> 00:58:11,200
Because you can't deliver things with
people by constraining them completely.

1223
00:58:11,530 --> 00:58:12,630
You know, I think in
the health services as well.

1224
00:58:12,960 --> 00:58:13,730
I mean, the front
line staff have to deal

1225
00:58:14,060 --> 00:58:18,530
with people in all sorts of
funny states of body and mind.

1226
00:58:18,860 --> 00:58:22,160
And you've got to actually trust
those people at the frontline.

1227
00:58:22,500 --> 00:58:26,960
So anything that's dealing frontline, with
you know, people in a serious service sense,

1228
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:29,560
you've got find a way to
free them up enough.

1229
00:58:29,900 --> 00:58:30,630
And I do think that probably
means distributed leadership.

1230
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:34,230
In other things where you're
just much more product focused,

1231
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:35,100
then I would say,

1232
00:58:35,430 --> 00:58:38,000
I don't know the answer to that.

1233
00:58:38,330 --> 00:58:39,130
I've not worked in
those sorts of industries.

1234
00:58:39,460 --> 00:58:42,100
And I just don't know.

1235
00:58:42,430 --> 00:58:43,400
I guess I have a gut feeling

1236
00:58:43,730 --> 00:58:45,860
that you always do better

1237
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,060
if you can get your people to do things
where they feel motivated,

1238
00:58:49,400 --> 00:58:50,530
they feel motivated for
doing things better all the time.

1239
00:58:50,860 --> 00:58:53,530
And to do that,
you need distributed leadership.

1240
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:57,260
Okay.  There are so many
great questions here

1241
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:58,300
it's a difficult choice.

1242
00:58:58,630 --> 00:59:00,330
But I guess I'll take it to us.

1243
00:59:00,660 --> 00:59:04,100
How would each of you structure a
leadership program here at MIT Sloan

1244
00:59:04,430 --> 00:59:07,330
to better create leaders for tomorrow?

1245
00:59:09,430 --> 00:59:11,160
You want to go with that?

1246
00:59:11,500 --> 00:59:12,660
Yeah, how would you do that?

1247
00:59:18,060 --> 00:59:22,560
Well, maybe we'll leave that
for another point in time.

1248
00:59:22,830 --> 00:59:25,060
I think it's through
getting people like you here,

1249
00:59:25,400 --> 00:59:27,360
to demonstrate how it's done

1250
00:59:27,700 --> 00:59:31,930
and to give people the models

1251
00:59:32,260 --> 00:59:34,230
and the opportunities
to try to do it themselves,

1252
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:38,530
in small ways before
taking it on in large ways.

1253
00:59:38,860 --> 00:59:41,730
That's what I would start by saying.

1254
00:59:42,130 --> 00:59:43,130
I mean, I have one.

1255
00:59:43,460 --> 00:59:47,400
I do think we've got to get
our management development

1256
00:59:47,730 --> 00:59:49,600
much more mixed across sectors.

1257
00:59:49,930 --> 00:59:51,260
The world is very complex nowadays.

1258
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:56,230
And there is a real
need for all of us to mix

1259
00:59:56,560 --> 00:59:59,860
and understand what
the different sectors bring.

1260
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:01,030
You know, the private sector,

1261
01:00:01,360 --> 01:00:03,130
the public sector, the government sector,

1262
01:00:03,460 --> 01:00:05,300
and also the NGO,

1263
01:00:05,630 --> 01:00:06,730
the voluntary sector.

1264
01:00:07,060 --> 01:00:09,130
Because we've all got...

1265
01:00:09,460 --> 01:00:11,100
to solve some of
the world's problems,

1266
01:00:11,430 --> 01:00:13,000
we've got to understand
how each other operates,

1267
01:00:13,660 --> 01:00:15,830
and what drives and motivates,

1268
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:17,630
and what are the constraints
on each other in doing things.

1269
01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:21,960
And also, because I think we
bring some very different skills.

1270
01:00:22,300 --> 01:00:25,260
I mean, I know that my organization is
incredibly weak on business processes,

1271
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:27,300
some of this basic management.

1272
01:00:27,630 --> 01:00:30,330
But I also know that
I've probably got an organization

1273
01:00:30,660 --> 01:00:32,100
that is fantastically skilled

1274
01:00:32,430 --> 01:00:35,500
in media, public relations, and so on.

1275
01:00:35,830 --> 01:00:38,430
We really know
how the public operates.

1276
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:40,130
And reputation issues too.

1277
01:00:40,460 --> 01:00:42,460
And I think we've got so
much to learn from each other.

1278
01:00:42,800 --> 01:00:47,130
I'd want a management development
program that really, really does...

1279
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,760
Respect for what each of
the different groups bring

1280
01:00:51,100 --> 01:00:51,695
and how we can learn.

1281
01:00:51,730 --> 01:00:54,300
Well, one of the things
I know that you're doing

1282
01:00:54,630 --> 01:00:57,230
because I know you believe this

1283
01:00:57,560 --> 01:01:01,330
is helping people understand there's no
cookie cutter formula for leadership.

1284
01:01:01,660 --> 01:01:04,960
There's no single personality type.

1285
01:01:05,300 --> 01:01:05,330
Everybody's got their own personality,

1286
01:01:05,660 --> 01:01:10,000
and the worst thing you can do is try
to be something other than yourself.

1287
01:01:10,330 --> 01:01:12,500
People have to know themselves

1288
01:01:12,830 --> 01:01:17,160
and utilize their own strengths to...

1289
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:22,930
You can certainly learn a lot
by looking at a lot of other leaders,

1290
01:01:23,260 --> 01:01:24,500
whether it's, you know,

1291
01:01:24,830 --> 01:01:27,830
Jack Welch, or Bill Gates,
whoever it is.

1292
01:01:28,170 --> 01:01:28,400
But they've all got
their own individual styles,

1293
01:01:28,730 --> 01:01:30,530
just like everybody else
in this room does.

1294
01:01:30,860 --> 01:01:33,200
And you need to know yourself,
take your own strength,

1295
01:01:33,530 --> 01:01:36,560
and build on your
own character and be natural.

1296
01:01:38,430 --> 01:01:42,560
Okay, what are the mechanisms to
have people at all levels be heard?

1297
01:01:42,900 --> 01:01:43,630
How do you do that?

1298
01:01:43,960 --> 01:01:45,800
How do you,
at the executive level,

1299
01:01:46,130 --> 01:01:47,930
know what these people want to do,

1300
01:01:48,260 --> 01:01:51,300
and how do you get
their ideas to percolate up

1301
01:01:51,630 --> 01:01:53,200
so that you know what they're doing,

1302
01:01:53,530 --> 01:01:53,760
and again, enabling that?

1303
01:01:55,060 --> 01:01:56,500
You never do it well enough, do you.

1304
01:01:56,830 --> 01:01:58,360
But we've got a
number of different ways.

1305
01:01:58,700 --> 01:02:00,630
I mean, I mentioned my letter,

1306
01:02:00,960 --> 01:02:03,760
which has a remarkable thing
on it called "Barbara's Replies".

1307
01:02:04,760 --> 01:02:07,230
And I get about ten a month back

1308
01:02:07,560 --> 01:02:09,300
on different things that
people have thought about

1309
01:02:09,500 --> 01:02:12,130
about what they think
we might do differently,

1310
01:02:12,460 --> 01:02:13,260
or comments on it.

1311
01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,630
We also have an amazing
thing which is terrifying,

1312
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:19,000
which is an e-

1313
01:02:19,330 --> 01:02:20,700
on our intranet,

1314
01:02:21,030 --> 01:02:22,300
[e-graffiti] wall,

1315
01:02:22,630 --> 01:02:25,400
where people can write
all their comments up.

1316
01:02:25,730 --> 01:02:26,460
And we don't run it all the time,

1317
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:30,030
but we run it about one month
every three months.

1318
01:02:30,660 --> 01:02:33,700
because it brings up every
single problem issue in the organization

1319
01:02:34,030 --> 01:02:36,830
that has to be then dealt
with in some fashion.

1320
01:02:38,160 --> 01:02:38,500
But at least by having that,

1321
01:02:38,830 --> 01:02:41,300
you know where
the organization is,

1322
01:02:41,630 --> 01:02:41,925
you know what people are feeling,

1323
01:02:41,960 --> 01:02:45,430
and why they're feeling irritated
about particular things.

1324
01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:48,260
And of course, there is
the management line actually.

1325
01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:49,730
You've got to listen to...

1326
01:02:50,060 --> 01:02:51,260
you know,
it's a bit like Jim's thing.

1327
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:53,660
Your local people have to communicate.

1328
01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:55,400
And they've got
to feed back up the line,

1329
01:02:55,730 --> 01:02:57,860
you know, when things
are really starting to hurt,

1330
01:02:58,200 --> 01:03:00,030
or pinch, or what's
going on that's not right.

1331
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:01,230
You know, it's a two-way...

1332
01:03:01,560 --> 01:03:05,060
not just a, you know,
we're telling down.

1333
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:05,830
It's got to be listening up.

1334
01:03:06,330 --> 01:03:07,030
Absolutely, it got to be a two way thing

1335
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:09,700
And you know,

1336
01:03:10,030 --> 01:03:12,460
I've used the example,

1337
01:03:12,800 --> 01:03:13,260
a lot of companies have a suggestion box.

1338
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:15,260
We never had one at Southwest Airlines,

1339
01:03:15,600 --> 01:03:20,400
because we wanted employees to feel like
they can make suggestions at any time

1340
01:03:20,730 --> 01:03:21,800
to any level of management.

1341
01:03:22,130 --> 01:03:24,230
And just as you were saying,
you receive that feedback.

1342
01:03:24,560 --> 01:03:25,400
I think that's important.

1343
01:03:25,730 --> 01:03:27,660
And there has to be a way.

1344
01:03:28,000 --> 01:03:29,460
You know,

1345
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,730
a suggestion box
mentality can just lead to

1346
01:03:34,060 --> 01:03:35,600
an environment where

1347
01:03:35,930 --> 01:03:37,960
ideas are taken
and people get back a response,

1348
01:03:38,300 --> 01:03:39,860
"Idea rejected."

1349
01:03:40,860 --> 01:03:43,200
You know, there has
to be two-way listening.

1350
01:03:43,530 --> 01:03:49,230
And it occurs in person,
it occurs through emails,

1351
01:03:49,560 --> 01:03:52,830
it occurs through letters,
irregular reports,

1352
01:03:53,160 --> 01:03:54,060
whatever mechanisms you may have.

1353
01:03:55,430 --> 01:03:56,500
I think given the time,

1354
01:03:56,830 --> 01:03:59,030
it's probably our last question.

1355
01:03:59,460 --> 01:04:02,160
How does distributed
leadership work in crisis?

1356
01:04:02,500 --> 01:04:03,600
Both of you have,

1357
01:04:03,930 --> 01:04:04,800
during your tenures,

1358
01:04:05,130 --> 01:04:06,900
faced incredible crises.

1359
01:04:07,230 --> 01:04:10,970
9-11 and the airline industry,

1360
01:04:11,300 --> 01:04:12,430
and the tsunami,

1361
01:04:13,100 --> 01:04:13,530
as perhaps recent indication where

1362
01:04:13,860 --> 01:04:14,860
there was complete chaos,

1363
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:19,500
there was a situation that
no one had remotely planned for.

1364
01:04:19,830 --> 01:04:21,900
How does your kind
of organization work

1365
01:04:22,230 --> 01:04:24,230
when there is a major crisis?

1366
01:04:25,730 --> 01:04:30,230
Well, 9-11 was certainly
an example of something that

1367
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:36,060
we would have not anticipated ever
happening exactly the way that it happened.

1368
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:40,530
And we had airplanes
scattered all over the country

1369
01:04:40,860 --> 01:04:41,660
in places that...

1370
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:45,060
with people who were in places
they didn't expect to be

1371
01:04:46,460 --> 01:04:51,260
because the FAA had ordered every airplane
in the sky immediately to land

1372
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:56,160
as soon as they had information
as to what was going on on 9-11.

1373
01:04:56,360 --> 01:04:58,230
passengers and employees both,

1374
01:04:58,560 --> 01:04:59,400
all over the country.

1375
01:04:59,730 --> 01:05:02,400
We maintained intense communication,

1376
01:05:02,730 --> 01:05:03,260
as intense as we could,

1377
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,160
keeping our people at all stations

1378
01:05:06,500 --> 01:05:07,960
and all the crew bases

1379
01:05:08,300 --> 01:05:12,400
as informed as we possibly could,
as we gained information.

1380
01:05:12,530 --> 01:05:13,500
And they did the same.

1381
01:05:13,830 --> 01:05:16,060
But it still required leadership

1382
01:05:16,400 --> 01:05:21,130
by people doing unexpected
things at the local level

1383
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:25,060
to accommodate employee needs.

1384
01:05:25,830 --> 01:05:30,560
Just required people who were
willing to take the initiative.

1385
01:05:30,660 --> 01:05:33,260
We had a pilot who landed in
some city we didn't serve.

1386
01:05:33,600 --> 01:05:37,430
The pilots and the flight
attendants had all these customers

1387
01:05:37,530 --> 01:05:40,630
and they didn't expect
to be in Peoria, you know.

1388
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,360
And then they were
stranded there for several days

1389
01:05:43,460 --> 01:05:44,330
until we could get buses there.

1390
01:05:44,660 --> 01:05:46,000
So they took them bowling.

1391
01:05:46,330 --> 01:05:47,300
You know, got out their credit card,

1392
01:05:47,630 --> 01:05:49,060
took them to a bowling lane.

1393
01:05:49,400 --> 01:05:50,960
And we got them into hotels.

1394
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,130
You know, you've got to
have people out there

1395
01:05:55,230 --> 01:05:58,070
who are willing to exhibit that
kind of creativity and leadership,

1396
01:05:58,170 --> 01:05:58,630
and just say,

1397
01:06:00,300 --> 01:06:01,900
"If I do something wrong,

1398
01:06:01,935 --> 01:06:03,230
they may chew me out

1399
01:06:03,560 --> 01:06:04,730
but I'm not going
to get fired over it."

1400
01:06:07,130 --> 01:06:10,160
I think Jim's just
demonstrated the thing is that

1401
01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:11,460
if you've got distributed leadership

1402
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:14,430
you're actually in a better position
in a crisis than if you don't,

1403
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,000
because you've got people who are
actually used to taking decisions,

1404
01:06:17,330 --> 01:06:20,870
and used to actually
providing leadership,

1405
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:22,330
who then look at the
situation they're in, and do it.

1406
01:06:22,430 --> 01:06:29,300
You know, and they don't have to wait
for some direction from other places

1407
01:06:29,335 --> 01:06:29,400
where people really
don't know what's going on.

1408
01:06:29,730 --> 01:06:32,560
And so I think it
actually helps actually.

1409
01:06:33,560 --> 01:06:37,430
Although again,
for us in Oxfam it's quite a dilemma

1410
01:06:37,560 --> 01:06:41,165
because also, that's fine
for the first little bit,

1411
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:44,000
when you're getting clear on
what the program's got to be,

1412
01:06:44,130 --> 01:06:47,230
people have also got to,
at some point, also take direction.

1413
01:06:47,330 --> 01:06:49,460
And that can, I think I said earlier,

1414
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,130
can sometimes be a bit
of a shock in the system

1415
01:06:51,230 --> 01:06:52,630
that normally, you know, they're
allowed to get on with things freely,

1416
01:06:52,700 --> 01:06:54,600
but you know,
this one, no, you know,

1417
01:06:54,930 --> 01:06:56,460
we are gong to do more

1418
01:06:56,800 --> 01:06:59,100
because you can actually
see a bigger picture from outside,

1419
01:06:59,430 --> 01:07:00,630
and these things have to be done.

1420
01:07:00,960 --> 01:07:03,560
Like I remember
sort of when the tsunami,

1421
01:07:03,900 --> 01:07:05,650
the beginning in Aceh, you know,

1422
01:07:05,685 --> 01:07:07,400
really fantastic work on the ground,

1423
01:07:07,730 --> 01:07:09,830
really got going very fast.

1424
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,930
But our Humanitarian Director
sitting in Oxford was saying,

1425
01:07:13,260 --> 01:07:16,160
¡§We've got to get
these guys some helicopters.

1426
01:07:16,600 --> 01:07:19,300
Because getting up
and down the coastlines,

1427
01:07:19,630 --> 01:07:21,030
we're really going to need that.¡¨

1428
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:22,030
And the local people were saying,

1429
01:07:24,030 --> 01:07:25,400
¡§Well, we're not sure
we really need that.¡¨ You know,

1430
01:07:25,530 --> 01:07:26,100
and at that point,
you have to say,

1431
01:07:26,430 --> 01:07:29,500
¡§No, actually, you know,
somebody seeing that bigger picture,

1432
01:07:29,830 --> 01:07:31,760
seeing the
scale of what's going on

1433
01:07:32,100 --> 01:07:33,430
you know, is going to override that.¡¨

1434
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:35,260
And sometimes you've got to say too,

1435
01:07:35,930 --> 01:07:36,400
you're going to take direction.

1436
01:07:36,730 --> 01:07:38,130
This is only maybe for a while,

1437
01:07:38,460 --> 01:07:42,460
but you know,
there's also some point where,

1438
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:44,800
some things that
just really have to be done.

1439
01:07:44,900 --> 01:07:45,500
And people will buy
into that providing,

1440
01:07:45,830 --> 01:07:47,460
you know, they know that
it's not coming too often.

1441
01:07:47,800 --> 01:07:49,530
You know,they get a lot of
freedom a lot of the time,

1442
01:07:49,860 --> 01:07:51,360
you know, but here
at this crisis point,

1443
01:07:51,700 --> 01:07:54,160
they're going to accept that
somebody is seeing a bigger picture.

1444
01:07:56,830 --> 01:07:59,130
Okay, I think again, given time,

1445
01:07:59,460 --> 01:08:00,460
we're probably about up.

1446
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:04,060
But I'd really like to
thank Jim and Barbara

1447
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:06,730
for coming and sharing
their experiences with us,

1448
01:08:07,060 --> 01:08:10,260
and giving us a better
picture of the processes,

1449
01:08:10,600 --> 01:08:11,300
the culture,

1450
01:08:11,630 --> 01:08:16,160
the practices that go along
with this kind of leadership

1451
01:08:16,260 --> 01:08:17,530
that will be very helpful to us.

1452
01:08:17,860 --> 01:08:18,130
Thank you.

1453
01:08:18,460 --> 01:08:19,160
Thank you both.

1454
01:08:25,430 --> 01:08:27,160
And on behalf of the school,

1455
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:28,460
it's my pleasure

1456
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:29,700
to present

1457
01:08:30,030 --> 01:08:31,430
to each of you

1458
01:08:31,700 --> 01:08:33,000
a token of our appreciation.

1459
01:08:33,330 --> 01:08:34,800
Thank you, Barbara,

1460
01:08:35,100 --> 01:08:36,500
Deborah,

1461
01:08:37,000 --> 01:08:38,165
thank you,

1462
01:08:38,200 --> 01:08:39,330
and Jim.

1463
01:08:39,660 --> 01:08:41,530
Thank you very much.

1464
01:08:42,860 --> 01:08:43,330
It's wonderful.

1465
01:08:43,660 --> 01:08:44,430
END